2:37:11 Pegasus, the Pegasus spyware which is the competitor to the Israeli Paragon. And Paragon got... we had a couple of stories I think maybe even some clips about and i think was an executive order Biden said Paragon is out! We can't have Paragon it was make sure I'm saying you're right was at Paragon let me make sure I'm saying the right one Yeah, no. Yes Paragon versus Pegasus and the Pegasus spyware was brought in by the NSO group
2:38:04 and was being sold into the US government. And that really happened from between when Obama left office, and Trump came in for four years it was remember Blinken? And all those jimokes they had a lobbying firm which was Mercury something or other...and they were the ones that were using their contacts to bring in this Pegasus software to get the Paragon stuff out and they had all these stories, oh Paragon killed... it was on... who was the reporters who got chopped up at the embassy? I don't know. You remember The Guy
2:38:49 He was a... Keshoggi? Keshoggi, yeah. That he had that spyware on his phone and so we needed to... Yeah that was the Pegasus stuff and so Paragon brought in you know they brought in venture capital guys they had I think Redpoint and they brought in this group but that was in DC who would just been just kind of left the administration during Trump So there's this ongoing war about who spyware should we be worried about, and who spyware should we have. And so Pegasus is the one that is the current Biden administration's darling but now we have Ronan Farrow—sorry Satchell Ronan O'Sullivan Farrow—who has a documentary coming out on HBO
2:39:47 About spyware, but only really one side of it and he happened to be It's the view but it's not horrible from the view. It's more about Ronan listen to how he's discrediting one over the other and let's see what we think The play is here these cases affect 450 million people is a violation of their rights What we ended up finding was actually the tip of the iceberg. So, can you tell our audience a little bit more about what you mean by spyware and is there a way for us to protect ourselves even in the most rudimentary way? Well the film is about
2:40:53 spyware hacking technology that can hijack your phone in the way you just heard about, sold by private companies to either governments who want easier access. You know even if it's in this government not every goverment office has CIS technology. So this means more people... I said, okay. You said it was some other pharaoh? No! Ronan's full name is Satchel Ronan O'Sullivan Pharaoh. Oh, okay. It's technology. He's developing...I just noticed this but I heard him the other day too he's developing a lisp He is good catch this government not every government office has the CIA's technology, right? so this means just more people can use it around the world and here and The way to resist. This is there's a few simple things Reboot your phone every day Not every form of spyware is foiled by this but some are
2:41:44 They always told us this at the department. You mean turn it off and turn it on? Yes, don't just leave your phone on all the time The other thing is this may sound obvious but keep your phone updated Uh-huh, okay. So I'm already feeling I'm smelling a rat here. He's already promised retribution against media the media and journalists you think he'll use this spyware to go? Yeah, not talking about Trump. I have two people including us! I'll tell you I've been talking to privacy law experts all day doing this new piece that's coming out and They all believe that this is a moment where there could be a free-for-all. So, that's where calling your reps can be important right now. They don't think the Fourth Amendment will hold in terms of unreasonable search and seizure? Didn't you ever explain what the Fourth Amendment is to them? The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution provides that we should be safe and secure on our papers or effects are things from unreasonable search and seizure and that is government reach into our private lives Well, the reality Sonny is that
2:42:42 There have been courts interpreting that, obviously over the decades. And what privacy advocates say is the case law has really eroded how that principle applies to data privacy specifically. Now there have been some rulings that are more supportive of aggressive enforcement and some that chip away at it. There's a lot of loopholes And what you see in a lot of these Western democracies where this has spiraled out of control is, you wind up with the situation where if the judiciary or the executive branch is saying oh there's some thin basis. We came up with an excuse for retaliating against a political enemy suddenly it's getting used against anyone that the political people in power don't like. And its usually done under the guise of national security. Exactly that and thats why the Department of Homeland Security and ICE purchasing this tech that I've been writing about from another company called Paragon
2:43:27 is frightening because what the experts say is DHS is often the place where they acquire controversial technology that's a little legally questionable and then use it as an excuse for national security. Is that Chrissy Noem now? Yeah, oh my gosh! So he's discrediting Paragon versus Pegasus. Ronan, what's our government's responsibility in terms of having access to this technology while also protecting the rights of our fellow citizens and what are they doing about this Well, the answer is not enough. So in response to a print story that you see me do in this film, the Biden administration did pass an executive order saying okay the US government shouldn't buy foreign spyware that's been used in abusive ways to crack down on dissent and so on
2:44:12 Now, since then what we've seen is there's these loopholes. DHS can purchase this kind of technology now they're in this case it's from a company where the argument in favor would be that hasn't specifically been used an abusive context but what illustrates is there's a lot of loopholes and were not seeing aggressive enforcement. And I'll tell you Sarah one thing that I heard from all of these companies that make this tech... In this film I get cameras into where they code Pegasus for instance in Israel They say look we're arms manufacturers. We make a new powerful kind of weapon and it is a weapon There's hundreds of cases where this has been linked to violence Wow And they say there it's not our fault that there's a no Geneva Convention equivalent There's no international law preventing this from being used in certain destructive ways So we do just need more of a framework
2:45:02 And the US government could do that. It's going to take legislators really pushing them. Good luck! Exactly. Is it time to go back to the rotary phone? Yes So I'm just trying to understand this feels like some kind of setup because we have two competing software pieces and that executive order came out against Paragon which to me feels like he's kind of going anti-paragon and pro Pegasus, which is an Israeli spyware. I'm confused by it. Do you think that they're trying to rekindle the business on the outside as they are preparing to leave? Or is this just completely random that this documentary appears?"
2:45:52 I have to watch the documentary, maybe we can come up with something. It'll be revealed in the documentary. There will be some moment and there you go... Oh what's this? Okay, I get it now. Well it is on HBO streaming now Is it on now? Yes, it came out yesterday. I have not watched it but I think we should pay attention to this because... I've been watching a fascinating documentary on Netflix. I only watched the first episode but it was interesting enough that you want to watch it The Vince McMahon document about his bio, the guy who ran the World Wrestling Operation. It's fascinating and I would recommend people take it check it out and McMahon currently or at least when they filmed a couple years ago he just did his whole face has become this kind of goofy looking thing it's just like what happened to you?